Wednesday, November 15, 2006

Why I Oppose Gay Marriage

Roch keeps asking me (although I have answered in varying ways several times), so here goes, all at once, nothing new.

This answer is personal to me. I don’t represent any group, any church, any organization, or any secret society in what I write. I have not quoted from anybody or looked up anybody else’s arguments on the internet.

I suspect this will lose me some of the good will I have gained amongst the blogging crowd here. Also, I am really not planning to make this a debate. I was asked a question and I am answering it. I hope that can that just stand.

I am aware of the corners I am painting myself into. So be it.

Two quick prologue type notes.

One: I am answering the question as to why I oppose codifying gay marriage as law. I am not asking the question as to what I think the Bible says about homosexuality. I will mention that but not make an argument about it as I think it is obvious. For those who don’t think it is obvious and want to jump all over me for not offering yet another long explanation, well, you’ll just have to wait until I’m ready to do that. Like many of you I also have other things to do.

Two: I am addressing a public issue. I am not talking about individuals. I hope you can know the difference. What I think about gay marriage has nothing to do with whether or not I like an individual gay person or gay people. A gay person reading this may feel that I don’t like gay people. I am not talking about gay people per se, I am talking about the public issue of gay marriage. I do not think, at a personal level, that I am more or less inclined to like a gay person than a non gay person. Plus, as a Christian I am commanded not to judge those outside of the church (judging having a personal referent). I am also commanded to love my neighbor. The rhetoric of public discourse can be rough, and easily misjudged or confused with personal attitudes towards individual persons. That would be a mistake in my case.

OK, so here are six reasons, as of today, and in the time I have allotted myself to type with my two fingers, that I oppose gay marriage.

First of all there is the issue of morality. And don’t even start to think it. Your sense of morality plays into your sense of the public good, and the interest of the state, whether you will admit to it or not. Even if you are an atheist. There are issues where you will draw a line in the sand and say, “We cannot do that” and the only real reason you have is that at some deep gut level you just think it is too terribly wrong. Legal or rhetorical distinctions between whether such and such an act or behavior or policy involves or hurts other people are themselves rooted in the moral ground of conscience somewhere.

A long long time ago…..there was a cultural consensus about much of what we might call natural law or the moral law. That consensus has not always had everything right. Christians believe in a fallen world and don’t believe in the perfect ability of fallen people to perceive the perfection of God’s moral order. So that human beings get some of it wrong is not surprising. But we also believe that there is a strong reverberation of this order throughout the universe, and in human nature, so that we get a lot of it right is not surprising either.

The fact that human cultures of all kinds of widely varying faiths have held to marriage as between men and women is of no small consequence. Just because cross cultural consensus gets it wrong sometimes does not mean that it necessarily gets it wrong all the time, or this time.

I do not believe that it is the job of the Christian citizen to impose every Christian commandment or behavior on the general public through the statues and laws of the state. I am no theocrat. But, as I alluded before, there are times when a thing is SO wrong that codifying it is unthinkable. If you examine your mind and heart you can think of such things. For me gay marriage is one of those things.

I’m not picking on gay marriage. I would say the same to incestuous marriage or bigamous or polygamous marriage.

Marriage, that is, the family, is the core structural unit of any and all societies, as much as States want and wish to make it otherwise. I believe that both the light of nature and the light of revelation, general and special, point to marriage as meant to be between a man and a woman.

Second, I find the arguments for the gay lifestyle and for gay marriage to so inane, so immature, so adolescent, and so demeaning to the human person, that I cannot find anything which comes from those arguments to be anything but bad for our collective culture as human beings together. If we are persuaded by such terribly silly and juvenile lines of reasoning then we are collectively becoming a culture in utter and horrible decline.

When the justification for a thing being right or OK becomes genetic tendency or personal desire or being in love then we have totally lost any compass for determining what kind of behaviors can be thought of as good or bad, right or wrong, or in the public interest or not.

A culture that becomes accustomed to that sort of thinking is not a culture I want to see come about, though I fear it is too late. Post enlightenment deconstruction of traditional authorities may have already gone too far to be reversed.

So, in short, if the arguments for gay marriage are so terrible in themselves, I can’t see the product of those arguments as anything but bad either, and thus cannot again see codifying gay marriage as a good thing.

Third, all the arguments I have heard for gay marriage will, no matter what the present proponents want or desire, open the door to all sorts of other arrangements being also legalized or recognized. If an argument meant for one thing also allows many other things that one does not want, then that is legitimate reason for not allowing the one thing in the first place. This is not a Chicken Little scenario. This is not rhetoric to scare or inflame. This is just the way it is. No argument that would allow for gay marriage will not also open the door to incestuous marriage eventually. I have made that point enough not to go on and on here.

Fourth, the codification in our statutes of gay marriage will normalize the gay lifestyle even more in our culture, in our media, and in our schools. Yes, it can and will be worse than now. More gay TV programs, more gay movies, more mandatory gay appreciation days, etc. I think that all that will make life even harder on the majority of our families and parents struggling enough as it is with the overabundance of heterosexual and growing lesbian sex everywhere you look. Since I am not as awed by the genetic argument and think sexuality is a tender thing, and less hard wired than some folks like to suggest, I think that this greater normalization of gay and lesbian lifestyles will add to the already very confusing sexual growth and maturation process of young people from childhood to adulthood.

Fifth, the codification in our statues of gay marriage will increase pressure and persecution upon those opposed to gay marriage. We think the PC machine is bad now. I believe it will get worse and that the price will get higher and higher for expressing opposition to what then will be “the law.” I already have had many discussions with Canadian pastors about how their laws have created pressures on their churches and pastors. People say now that churches will still be free not to recognize civil unions. We’ll see. The people, the pressure groups, who advocate for gay marriage, are not exactly kind to Christian issues and Christian rights and Christian free speech. We’re already systematically and unashamedly called bigots, Nazis, homophobes, hypocrites, and idiots; you name it, we’re called it. And this is going to get better? Just recently I knew of a person who got into a lot of trouble when it became known in his company that he was opposed to gay marriage even though he was not even talking about it at work. I don’t think the left leaning supporters of gay marriage care too terribly much about free speech for its opponents, or for conservative Christians, and I think they will only be empowered as this juggernaut makes its way down the tracks.

Sixth, (and finally, because I have some other things to do) and pointing back to reason number one, I believe that the legalization of gay marriage will be bad for children. Children are best served, in my opinion, by having a male and a female parent. Legalization of gay marriage will solidify and liberalize rules and laws regarding gay adoption, which I am not supportive of generally (though, if we have it, I am supportive of rights of inheritance etc., for the sake of the children). Of course there are many examples of terrible heterosexual parents. So what? And of course many single parents have done a great job raising their children. So what? That does not mean that chldren are not best served by the complementing gifts and natures of a male and female parent.

As to adoption, there would be plenty of available adoptive parents for children in need of homes if some present adoption rules were readdressed. From a legal standpoint I know this argument rooted in procreation can’t stand, but I am not making a legal argument, I am giving my personal reasons for opposing gay marriage. I do think that the primary purpose of marriage was and is partnership in procreation, not mere sex or companionship. The fact that some people cannot have kids does not mitigate against procreation as the primary intended purpose, theologically and biologically speaking, of marriage. We as human beings were obviously built that way and for that purpose.

Again, and alluding back to my second reason, when people start resorting to talking about hermaphroditic worms or to alternative ways of stimulating the male penis, to get around this argument, I’m thinking we’re just going downhill fast. A culture that is looking at worms or apes as examples of alternative natural ways of doing it, is a culture that has lost its bearings, in my opinion.

Well, that should be enough for now.

Joel

22 comments:

Anonymous said...

Wow -- This made me sad that someone has so much time worrying about other peoples lives... You live your life... Let me live mine.

Ryan said...

Gay people need to have their partnerships recognized by the state, not the CHURCH, because they have families and property. If a person in a gay relationship becomes ill or dies, a legal nightmare ensues regarding child custody, health insurance, and property inheritance. If you thought for a second about why gay couples are trying to have legal protection of their partnerships, you'd realize the points I made in about ten seconds. Your concern is with propagating your reactionary ideology. You are a dinosaur. One day, you'll see your beliefs scattered like artifacts in the history books.
And this I pray to God to pass!

Joel said...

Ryan,

As I have commented on Matt's site, I think there needs to be some accomodation for those legal needs, short of marriage. I agree that as long as we have (and I am not suggesing otherwise) gay couples that live together and have partnerships, there needs to be some kinds of legal protections of the kinds you mentioned, including property inheritance for children. And, you may be right. Time, for a while, may cause me to be as a dinosaur. You may well be right. That does not make the argument wrong or gay marriage right.

Joel said...

anonymous,

whatever...

Percy Walker said...

Joel -- Your response to Ryan suggests to me that there may not be that big a gulf between what homosexuals want and what you can tolerate. The word "marriage," I think, puts unnecessary stress on the situation. I believe that all we are talking about here is that the government grants certain benefits to, and imposes certain obligations on, people who choose to marry one another. If couples of the same sex choose to accept those obligations, why not give them the benefits that couples of the opposite sex enjoy? We don't have to call it "marriage."

It has always struck me that social conservatives would want to offer the carrot of marriage-like rights to gay couples who are willing to commit to each other in a marriage-like way, which itself is socially conservative behavior. To me, the desire for marriage-like rights reflects that the gay community is becoming conservative more than it does that society is becoming too liberal.

Joe Guarino said...

Joel, another excellent post. And yes, the argument that gay marriage is imperative because it provides legal protections becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you shape the argument to suggest that the provision of these benefits is the chief issue, it distracts attention from the other issues.

Many of the legal issues being discussed by some of the commenters on this thread and your previous thread can be settled prospectively via private contract.

Percy Walker said...

In quick response to what Joe just said, there are important things like social security survivor benefits and the ability to file tax returns jointly that can't be dealt with contractually (there are probably other things as well), but even to the extent benefits could be dealt with contractually, you are imposing transaction costs and risks that married couples don't have to bear.

Joel said...

Percy,

Good thoughts. Yes, the word "marriage is loaded. Perhaps realizing how loaded it is will help move us toward some tolerable compromise. I'd like to get there, and then change the subject! I'd like to join wuith some gay rights people and go save a mountain soemwhere! I saw Bill Maher talking about the loaded nature of the word marriage the other night. It was interesting...The short answer to your question has to do with the sanctity of marriage. However, I grant the conservative nature of to what you are refering, though that phenomenon reflects only a segment of the overall movement. I also am, politically speaking, pragamatic, and I would want to work out some of these issues for the good of the individuals concerned, short of civil marriage. It may not be just as easy and cheap as for married couples, but that's the way it goes, to put it crassly. We can still work in that direction. My whole discourse is an answer to the question "why not just call it marriage."

Anonymous said...

Joel,

Thanks for taking the time to answer the question. Well done.

alice

meblogin said...

I don't believe the politicians can gain support with the word "marriage".

The word marriage has a huge religious following.

I believe the gay community has made an error in calling what they want "marriage".

Create a different word..get the legal support given to a couple ...and then later go after "marriage" again is what I would do.

thanks

Joel said...

meblogin,

If I were them that's what I would do. It's not just the religious folk who want the notion of "marriage" preserved for a man and a woman. Which means it's even a more uphill battle, so politically, the approach you've suggested, though slower and more cautious, is more strategic for their cause I think.

Roch101 said...

Churches are already free to marry whomever they want. If one wants to restrict that, then one would have to propose government intervention in religion.

Anonymous said...

Don't these reasons echo those used to oppose the abolition of slavery?

Joel said...

Well, to me they sound like reasons for opposing slavery…

1. At a gut level, the enslavement of one person by another is just wrong.
2. All the arguments I read to support slavery are stupid, so slavery can’t be good.
3. The arguments used to support the dehumanization and enslavement of one group of human beings by another could be used to support any number of equally terrible ills – therefore I do not wish to open the door to those other ills by keeping the door open to slavery.
4. The normalization of slavery in our culture, and the concomitant demeaning of one class of human beings by another, is bad for our culture generally. I don’t want my kids growing up thinking it’s normative and OK for people to own slaves and treat others as property.
5. By extending the codification of laws allowing for slavery, and by making slavery more and more the legal as well as cultural norm, there will be more and more pressure and ridicule heaped upon those who oppose slavery, and I don’t want that for myself, my friends, or my kids.
6. Back to #1, the continued legalization, and the extension of the legalization of slavery, is and will be bad for our children, first and foremost for those children of slaves, whose lives will never be stable and normal as they can and will be separated form their parents at the will of their masters, and secondly for all children growing up thinking that wrong is right and right is wrong.

But I am sure any creative person can make the same six reasons out to be arguments for or against anthing…

Anonymous said...

That was my point -- the rationale, as articulated, was untenable. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't oppose gay marriage -- but it seems that your reason for doing so essentially boils down to your reason #1, the moral argument (or "ick factor").

Joel said...

Anonymous,

I don't agree. The argument I presented does not all hinge on # 1. # 2 is very persuasive to me. So is # 3. Those don’t assume # 1.

Look, there are many creative debaters around here who can use and twist words if they want to. I have tried not to do that here in this post. If one were disingenuous one could take anybody's argument anywhere and turn it around and use it however one wished. Just because that can be done does not mean therefore that all arguments are unsound.

I sincerely believe that the arguments for gay marriage and the legitimization of the gay lifestyle are juvenile. They are the kind of stuff I hear from my pre teen children. I also believe that such arguments are incredibly demeaning to the human person, and to human personhood, and to human personality, and thus are ultimately and irreversibly damaging to human culture. Go ahead and say that somebody said such and such about slavery or whatever. I don't care. I do know that the majority of people who led the fight against the slave trade and against slavery itself were Christians who were acting out of fundamental moral persuasion, despite what some Southern preachers were saying. That those preachers did that is an embarrassment to me and always will be. But that has nothing to do with my arguments above. The fact is, I believe that the arguments for gay marriage are juvenile, and that belief is not grounded in reason # 1. I also believe that the arguments used to legitimize and legalize gay marriage will also be used to legitimize and legalize things that I think even most gay rights advocates don’t want, or don’t want to say they want. Maybe they do, I don't know. I'm sure they can add two and two as well as I can.

Anonymous said...

C'mon -- are you kidding me? You are sticking w/ #2? Your other posts are too well-reasoned for this to be real. The pro gay marriage arguments are immature, therefore I oppose gay marriage? and, Reasons 3-6 "bad things might happen" You oppose gay marriage because of #1 (and that's fine). I think you'd be hard-pressed to find evidence supporting reasons 3-6 in places where gay marriage has been legalized. I don't know, but I would guess that polygamy, marriage with children, marriage with animals, etc hasn't happened in Massachusetts or Canada or Amsterdam or where ever else gay marriage is legal.

Joel said...

Whoever you are hiding behind anonymous, I am dead serious about # 2. And I never said anything about marriage to animals. And you're looking to European culture as a positive example for us to follow? Then we're in different worlds. About # 2, I could go on and on at great lengths but I don't think I need to or should draw that out yet again, and have some of the same old arguments all over again. I was asked to say why, so I said why. This post was meant as a statement for those interested, as an answer to a question, so enough already. Read the preface. I have been commenting about this for a long time.

Joel said...

You know, the more the thing keeps creeping into my mind, the more I want to laugh, or cry, or throw up my hands, or something. So, one objects to the line of thinking that if the arguments for a thing are bad, then the thing is bad, or may well be bad. Can we imagine a world where the opposite is true, or are we there already. Slavery was brought up. Can one imagine hearing this: I think all the arguments for slavery are terrible, are demeaning to the human person, and are immature, therefore, I think slavery is cool? Have I fallen down a rabbit hole? Yes, I see ORANGE MARMALADE. Or have I taken little orange pills? Please, say you disagree about the arguments themselves. Say you think the arguments for gay marriage are very sound and mature and reasoned. Say that my take on those arguments is all washed up. But PLEASE, don’t say that it doesn’t matter if the arguments are immature or not. OF COURSE IT MATTERS!

Kelsi said...

"When the justification for a thing being right or OK becomes genetic tendency or personal desire or being in love then we have totally lost any compass for determining what kind of behaviors can be thought of as good or bad, right or wrong, or in the public interest or not."

Joel, why would you marry someone? Becuase their female and you're male and you can create a child? No, you would marry someone that you love, just as I would do, whether that person was male or female.

What makes my argument immature or immoral or insane or adolescent? Absolutely nothing. Gay marriage is very much like the discrimination of blacks. They, at one time, weren't allowed to marry because something so petty as skin colour, and now people aren't allowed to marry because of the discrimination of sexual orientation.

Marriage isn't a religious communion. It's governed by the State. Your church does not give you marriage license. Marriage is simply a CULTURAL thing. It isn't something specifically Christian or Muslim or Jewish. It's something that has always been apart of the human culture.

Joel said...

Kelsi,

Thank you for proving my point # 2.

Joel

Joel said...

Kelsi,

Thank you for proving my point # 2.

Joel